I have never played infinity but the last part sounds like a good idea although, I think no target system wouldnt be too difficult with just wasd. 

The problem in Infinity is that there isnt any distance attack class to keep balance in game.

You dont have any distance point at enemy to attack ,you just can change directions of attack with WSAD or mouse ( mouse is much easier) and you do combos with only 2 mouse buttons.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6W7KdGArecs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tu3JId5UkqM&feature=related

Some movies with gameplay.

Game is pretty good ,but I dont play it because like always English Type server scamm to max, skill with unlimited time only for real cash. And who the f... want to buy skill he use all the time every few days. And 2nd is that there isnt much maps and they added stupid jumping to gameplay what creates only bugs(specialy in PvP).

But back to game, its totally skill based ,for exemple everybody kick me from rooms because I am low lvl ,but I can survive on maps 10-20 lvl highers than my char lvl, and keep up with hlvl people.

Wow if they had that kinda gameplay it would be just sick. I bet itd drag soo many people over.  One problem I forsee though is that unless your using a special attack none of the warriors attack horizontally. This could be a problem for people that dont aim so well but then again we will have to wait until we can fool around with Wasd controls to see exactly. I think it would be an easy fix and could work like this: Slashing attack horizontal, kicking and punching verticle. 

In infinity all "slashes" are 3D, that means it hit everything on the way of attack animation what is kinda good for exprienced player. Beak Ho special attack is like high speed /dmg dash,its hard to master using it but it deal great dmg. The biggest problem how the system would work with guns and bows.

Ifninity got 4 attack buttons , left mouse for fast slash , right for slower but more powerfull , "E" on keyboard to block , and clicking middle button (scroll) on mouse is to grab.

The best configuration for us would be all 3 buttons in mouse and maybe "space" for block. Its exactly the same amount of buttons we need for all attacks types.

I can write down new ingame system that I didnt see in any else game. Its only to add nice look and something new to normal attack ,actualy dont have much to comboes.

The best fighting system I ever seen is in Windom (the gundam game) , its auto targeting but not hard to evade enemy missiles or laser cannons. They got not bad attack animations ( like 10-50 rocket shoots at 1 time , or even 100 laser attack) , cool blocking system and the 3D boxes just kick a$$. I never seen so good 3D boxes in any game before ,even ones with few GB space (and that one is only 50MB). How to tell you , the box is ideal shape ,it isnt easy made like in other game that its just triangle or something to make it easier for developer ,its actually the same shape as character you playing. For exemple if you wear shield and block ,it block everything in front of you ,but if you dont use block the shield is still on you left arm side ,actually if someone hit you on that side it count as block without even pressing the block button. The attack arent hard to evade because the game is refreshing wery fast (req fast net) ,but it really worth it ( actually WE dont refresh attack area ,if you press the button while monster is in AOE range ,it can run even 192381209321392183901238 other maps and still get hit), if something really dont pass thru you ,or hit you on ur screen there isnt chance to do you dmg.

Hmm I still think the champions of norrath game + some combos added on would be brilliant. Especially if they added more wide spaced instances instead of small corridoor stuff. 

Archer and zambranos wouldnt have chance to aim with only WSAD ,there must be aiming with mouse too if so. I already tested how the aiming on only WSAD would look like ,its almost imposible to aim anything what moves bit fast.

nothing really moves fast though so it wouldnt be too much of a problem. Though having your character face the direction of your cursor (mouse) then  that would solve out problems i suppose. 

i have to say i disagree with almost everything you guys have said bar a few of your suggestions...

First off an MMORPG is an MMO not an RPG, there are several key diferences.
Your current suggestions would turn WE into hack and slash, i like hack and slash there's a lack of DECENT hack and slash MMO's/RPG's around as of late but i dont think WE should be one.
Button mashing is better suited for consoles or FPS for a reason, and as you pointed out the want/need for a console controller i assume you reacognise why this is.

Click and point works well on a lot of levels hence why its used so commonly, its versitle its easy to use it can be edited easily and customized even more so.
Adding keyboard move commands while keeping the mouse interface would be better than removing it all together.

Skills, i agree we need more direct skill usage, you press 1 while targeting you fire the skill in your 1 slot instantly etc etc
but for ranged attacks, AOE's and such (espically spirits) without a mouse to aim and without an easy way to manipulate the camera youd miss horrificly and people would just become aggravated.

Now this could be easily handled by having two or more 'key/control sets' like games such as 2moons, where if someone wants to remove the need for targeting a skill they can, but then skills such as AOE targetable or spirits would still need the mouse to use. Most key press target systems are basic to say the least, Tab features are most commonly 'target closest' or 'target last attacker' so if you were an archer and wanted to attack say the 2nd or 3rd mob into a room you'd be pretty much out of luck. this being said, even complex MMOs have mouse targeting DAOC, and WoW being the most prominent.

Auto attack/retaliate needs to be toggleable as well, it is rather annoying when you try to run from a mob only to turn around and attack it when your attack cooldowns over, this is only really a problem with ranged chars ive found.

 In closing, if you're wanting to influence Devs id suggest you refrain from bashing the current game state and try to keep your arguements fact based rather than opinion based as personal feelings can often be missinterpreted and this can lead to missunderstandings.
reading back this past few pages i myself got the impression of you hating on the current game system and demanding changes rather than suggesting changes.

 I like the ideas in this thread, and i like where its going, we just need to find a middle ground between full keyboard or full mouse interfaces so everyone can be happy.

We want to give life to this game ,most people leave it because its to boring ( I like the potenatial of this game, but nothing change the fact that I fall asleep playing it).

Its totall grindfest right now, -2 to dynamic of game ,and fighting system is pretty monotonic what makes it ultra boring after just few hours of playing. After they add more skills that might change but it will just give another few hours of good fun and again we will fall asleep ( unless you like to Eat + watch tv + chat +play + + + + + + while playing game).

I know that this game is in Development and CB state ,but fighting system is everything of game ( good system give even 80% of succesful sell of game) and we need to make it really good to win against houdrets of other MMORPG's.

Everyone on internet is bored like s.... playing all over the same type of MMORPG ,people want something good. There is one way to check if game is good or not , be sick and play game ,if you will still feel the pain that means the game is pretty weak ,good game makes you forget about everything else.

The AOE system isnt really hard to do , just make it AOE always in the same range from player ,it would be then harder to use by players and thats the point to give some difficulty in controling your character. Harder to control spell would give better dmg output and other things. But I know most poeple are so weak that they go only on the easy way of playing games ,and most of them use cheats or bots.

i dont find WE boring at all... and last i checked, i'm on the internet.
You shouldnt generalise so much as CB is restricted so the playerbase isnt going to boom as much as an open beta would.
Testing is testing, change and balance will come we just have to be patient xP

WE isnt much of a grind compared to other free to play MMO's, maplestory, air rivials, flyff, 2moons etc etc but perhaps changing the xp gain may make a difference to the gameplay itself.
Perhaps adopting the GW attitude of casual gamers over hardcore gamers would make end game content more important and open up a place for a more dynamic fighting system.

As it is i can log on, play a map for 20 or so mins then log off with no worries, there's no real raiding or grinding involved unless i actually set out to get a level before i log off then im in for a long hall. finding groups, spaming xp-pots etc etc.
So currently WE is pretty easy to get into and out of without many problems.

Didint see anyone with lvl 50 warrior ,and  it take wery much time (read grind) to reach 30 even with double exp potions. Belive me when we will be in OB much people will reach 50 lvl and try to keep up with them.

Anyway I dont talk about balance in game, I am ok with that side of game. WE need something dynamic in it ,watching all time the same 3 normal attacks (or even only 1) + waiting for cooldown of skills cant be called dynamic. All we know is that this game will be more tactical (but what is tactic if we dont have even block option on chars) and AI of oponent will be raised. Anyway it wont keep much players in game. I like this game personaly but on longer ride its start to boring even me , battle system is lacking speed and refresh rate.

One of the trick with refresh rates is to cast as much skills as you can till all mobs are in your attack area , then even after you push them back 1mile away they still will get hit from next attack , the same mobs do with you. That need correction and i think it will be corrected for sure. But speed of gameplay is still to low ,I know PS want to do this game more based on strategy than speed ,but as in all MMORPGs strategy system will be really hard to achieve.

Ok so I have some issues with Quog. First of all there are not alot of hack n slash mmos period. There is a handful at best. Hack n slash means manual attacking and is a sub category for the action game genre. DDO is hack n slash, WoW is not. Large difference. Now as far as you saying that we cant generalize because this is in closed beta.... wow, just wow. Closed beta is a joke because its so easy to get into beta testing at this point. The last playday had 1/3 the people to the one prior. As a matter of fact I believe Brice has a thead asking what we think would stop the huge turn around from players coming and leaving. So there you go, we dont just assume things we actually have good reasons and for as much as our hating on the game goes its constructive criticism as Herflik, myself, and others have voiced opinions on this topic as well as a small debate to find the middle ground. Obviously this isnt going to be full on hack n slash diablo because health is precious and you can only carry 3 potions per mission so you have to stay smart and use tactics with your party just to survive. MMORPG = multi massive online (ready for this part ?) role playing game. Yes it is an rpg but one that many people can play together at once. 

    So yeah I'll tell you what, your not bored but I assure you the large turn around of people were. This game has potential to become great but we just havent seen anything yet to scream success. Without a static world with the game being all mission based, it takes away from alot of peoples hardcore rpg grind drive as there is no world to roleplay in. With the way its going now it feels more like levels of an arcade game and everyone knows if you want a successful arcade game you need fast gameplay. This means the ability to either win fast or lose fast so that you woud pop another quarter into the machine. So what we need is faster gameplay, more dynamic combat, and more people to put up their opinions in this thread. Sofar youve tried to argue with us but if you have been reading along you suggested the same thing we not only have but also debated over to find the right course to go. So please read each post and then if you dont agree fine, but state why. Point and click is too simplistic and if we wanted simple id go grind some easy asian mmo. 

If you read what i said i mentioned the fact there are no decent hack and slash MMO's or even RPG's, i do know the difference hence why i stated it?

As for the generalisations its not so much you generalising its the REASONS behind your generalisation, a lot of people leaving doesnt mean the game is bad, i myself have spoken to people in game and reasons vary a lot.
There's been a few of threads stating reasons why people have left and the majority werent from disapointment with the game as a whole it was more along the lines of technical issues or time restraint.
And since its closed beta a lot of people jump on board play for a week or so then vanish. its life, there's no real reason to them doing it apart from wanting to be in on something from the ground floor then they just forget/dont care anymore. Hell the first playday thread was spamed with people asking how to get CB tester status and they turned up once then left.

Last time i checked constructive criticsim doesnt start with the words "lousy game" i understand you argue your points i did as well and i DO agree with most of what you say but at the same time minor points you made dont make sense or are too vauge or general to be of any use. comparing WE to other already established games is like comparing apples and oranges, i personally believe WE hasnt found its niche yet hence all the problems and once the devs find WE's niche everything will go along much smoother.

Boredem isnt always the problem, rage is another as well as age of players, ive personally seen in one play session well over 20 people rage from a game because they died (generally a pit fighter running into a room of mobs alone) and then quit when no one else will suicide because they are capable of finishing the map, is that boredom? i had to clear my friendlist of people who quit because of, and i quote "crap players"
now this ties into the whole faster game play more dynamic combat, if its a skill based game rage levels become higher and you actually develop elitiesm inside the community. now with a lower player age comes less self control are you seeing where im going?
so the solution might not be to make a faster game but a more balanced play style while keeping the current system.
Yet again... ive read all of the posts in this thread and yes i agree with you on most points (read: something needs to change)  but as i said before i disagree on others. (read: other alternatives could be explored)

As it stands WE is advertised as an Action RPG and its lacking action (this i agree on) but if it were to slow down the combat while still maintaining a high level of gameplay with less grinding would you complain?
point and click IS simple but thats BECAUSE it works on so many levels even large scale/complex MMO's use it such as DAOC, L2 and even WoW (im sure i stated this before)
one of the biggest problems if we were to get rid of a mouse system to favour a pure keyboard system would be pathing issues, the entire map system and pathing system would have to change so we dont get stuck in walls/behind trees/near rocks etc etc and as it is right now i dont see that happening.

and personally i dont find grinding easy.. espically on the asian MMo's =/ boring? yes and motononus, but easy... no

ok so that was a well written post and made alot more sense but it still feels like your advocating point n click play which just ruins the whole unique thing we would be going for. It was suggested upon that full keyboard support would be cool and a different pace but at the same time we decided a combination of keyboard and mouse. Think of it as a top down third person shooter/action game first. Now imagine the mouse cursor being the way your character faces/aims while wasd is his movement. Currently i think this is the best way suited for how the game currently is with level designs (which I find absolutely atrocious.) Its far too one track and not enough branching out or giving space. With the current camera controls, things become even more difficult to do when not in top down view. A few ideas to fix this would be to create a kind of 3d sidescrolling view much like some of the more recent gauntlet games have. This allows for a feel of more freedom and not always staring at the blackness off the map or another part of the map, like seeing the dungeon down below when your in the jungle part. 

Now back to combat. Ive linked plenty of games that have the general idea im trying to put out and they have mostly been hack n slashers. I think the point of the mechanic im trying to get through is being overshadowed by people not listening and taking it out of context. I think if we mixed a kind of beat um up game (IE: streets of rage 2, fighting force) with the fantasy setting and it would be very successful. If you ever played either game youd understand there is some hack n slash but you cant just go through every last guy like that. Alot of the fights take simple tactics especially for the lesser boss guys. A big thing of these games was conserving health to make it through the level and I feel that reflects this game very much. 

So at the same time I say this mouse for aiming and keyboard for moving would work well, I find a classic arcade beat um up (which never had more then 2 attack buttons for the sega game) also a fantastic option.  I havent settled on any one gamestyle and im still open to others but I just dont want another diablp/guildwars-esque game. So point and click is absolutely out of the question for me personally. What other ideas have you got ?

Only player skill based game (Arcade) can be real tactical game ,because if you use your brain together with your skills you can finish the map without losing even 1 hp. Now its pretty imposible unless you really will wait 128371298312312 hours too recharge every skill.

Arcade game is really a tactical game itself ,but its speeded up. Remember if the game will be faster then it will requiere more concentration on it ,the same making the player feel that he really playing good game. Now its pretty waiting just for skills , "wait I will go take food till the skills will recharge" ,thats isnt good game ,and that wont change without changing whole combat system. All they will do is correcting skills , AI and adding just new items and new skills ,but system will be the same ,the feeling will be the same.

And one thing ,this game dont have potential because its good ( it isnt really so great) ,the administration and community give it potential ,and they decide what will happen with it.

Now I am just playing some  gundams ,it looks simple ,but on SURVIVAL mode you fight all time vs 2 bots .AI is imporing with more kills. It isnt just rushing on the enemy with canons and rocket launchers , you need to observe how they move (the AI is pretty smart). You need to choose fast/slow powerful attack or rather block ,if player pick wrong action he is practicaly dead, and whats most important, terrain is wery helpfull if you use it for exemple as shield. Its mix of using player skills and tactic at 1 time ,speeded up to look flawless ,and I really enjoy the game.